search
cart
facebook instagram twitter linkedin youtube
  • Sign In
  • Create Account
  • Sign Out
  • My Account
  • NEWS
  • PRODUCTS
    • FEATURED PRODUCTS
  • CONTRACTORS
    • BATH & KITCHEN PRO
    • BUSINESS MANAGEMENT
    • HIGH EFFICIENCY HOMES
    • TECHNOLOGY
    • WATER TREATMENT
    • PMC COLUMNS
      • Dave Yates: Contractor’s Corner
      • John Siegenthaler: Hydronics Workshop
      • Kenny Chapman: The Blue Collar Coach
      • Matt Michel: Service Plumbing Pros
      • Scott Secor: Heating Perceptions
  • ENGINEERS
    • CONTINUING EDUCATION
    • DECARBONIZATION | ELECTRIFICATION
    • FIRE PROTECTION
    • GEOTHERMAL | SOLAR THERMAL
    • PIPING | PLUMBING | PVF
    • PME COLUMNS
      • Christoph Lohr: Strategic Plumbing Insights
      • David Dexter: Plumbing Talking Points
      • James Dipping: Engineer Viewpoints
      • John Seigenthaler: Renewable Heating Design
      • Lowell Manalo: Plumbing Essentials
      • Misty Guard: Guard on Compliance
  • RADIANT & HYDRONICS
    • RADIANT COMFORT REPORT
    • THE GLITCH & THE FIX
  • INSIGHTS
    • CODES
    • GREEN PLUMBING & MECHANICAL
    • PROJECT PROFILES
    • COLUMNS
      • Codes Corner
      • Natalie Forster: Editorial Opinion
      • Guest Editorial
  • MEDIA
    • EBOOKS
    • PODCASTS
    • VIDEOS
    • WEBINARS
  • RESOURCES
    • INDUSTRY CALENDAR
    • DIRECTORIES
    • PM BOOKSTORE
    • CE CENTER
    • MARKET RESEARCH
    • CLASSIFIEDS
  • EMAGAZINE
    • EMAGAZINE
    • ARCHIVE ISSUES
    • CONTACT
    • ADVERTISE
    • PME EMAGAZINE ARCHIVES
  • SIGN UP!
Columns

Letters To The Editor -- August 2004

August 1, 2004
Tell us what you think! Visit our Feedback Page to send us your letter to the editor.

Controls Are Nothing New

I just read Carol Fey's column "Parallel Vs. Series Circuits" (April 2004). I happen to be a master electrician and a journeyman instrument man. I also run my own electrical contracting firm.

I'd like to say I take offense to this column. It was well written until you get to the last couple of paragraphs - in which it states that a control tech is much more capable at troubleshooting a control system.

Most electricians spend four or five years in an apprenticeship learning about controls, loads, series and parallel circuits. That's how we determine wire sizes, current draw, etc. How does a control tech get his training? Most of the ones we have to help out get it on the job.

Perhaps it is my instrument background or my nature of business, but controls are nothing new to the electrical industry. I have been installing Honeywell Controls for 30 years now and have instructed more control techs than vice versa.

David Moser
Moser Electric
Wisconsin Rapids, Wis.

Carol Fey responds: You are the exception to what we often see in the field - and we appreciate the heck out of you! (My dad and granddad were both electricians. I'm a former IBEW member. So don't think I'm anti-electrician!)

Here's what I did a couple years ago. Because so many controls were being burned by electricians (and I'm talking about the ordinary pulling-wires-from-here-to-there-with-no-brain-engaged type of guy), I hired an electrician to just talk. The idea was that I could ask any question, and he would answer it the best he could.

Q: How do electricians learn to wire controls? A: We don't, and we don't want to. It's sissy stuff - low voltage can't hurt you.

Q: How do you think when you're wiring a circuit. A: We don't think in circuits. We pull wires from one place and put them another place.

Q: Why do you accept work wiring controls? A: The plumbers (hydronic heating guys) beg us, so we feel sorry for them and say OK.

In teaching and writing, I'm trying to get heating guys (often plumbers) to see they need to take responsibility for their whole job and learn how to do it. I realize you have a lot of special knowledge. But wiring up the controls for a boiler just ain't that hard. First he needs to get over being scared or thinking he's too dumb to do it himself.

Where can they learn? From the boiler manufacturer reps, from the distributor techie guy, from guys in the field who know, from books and classes.

Siggy's Right On

John Siegenthaler has nailed the lid on the suspended tube coffin! I felt like he was writing about a radiant retrofit we're just in the process of completing. Identical 55 degrees F indoor temperatures on a design day and very upset homeowners.

The builder furnished me with pictures taken during the installation, which revealed it was a suspended tube application with little to no insulation between the tubing and the ceiling below. Needless to say, the first floor had both a radiant floor and a radiant ceiling due to the extensive back-loss from above. Warm and toasty downstairs. Frigid upstairs. Adding to the problem were an ineffective control strategy, restricted flow used as a means of creating wide delta-Ts and several carpeted areas further restricting heat transfer to the upper floor.

By using a detailed radiant heat loss program, it was determined that water delivery temperatures exceeding 260 degrees F were required to adequately heat several rooms! It was necessary to abandon the suspended tubing application in place and start over with radiant wall and floor panels. A new control strategy along with more advanced piping methods replaced most of what had been cluttering up the basement. Water delivery temperatures are much lower (by as much as 80 degrees F in some zones).

A couple of things led to the demise of the original two-year-old radiant installation: 1) the installer did not perform his own heat loss or design and, therefore, did not understand the importance of insulation, how much was required to drive the heat upwards or the impact carpet and padding would have on system performance; and 2) there was a lack of communication between the builder, owners, other trades and the mechanical contractor.

Education and communication are the keys that will unlock the doors barring the way to systems that can exceed customer expectations. John Siegenthaler's columns and design software shine like a beacon in a long, cold winter's night.

Dave Yates
F.W. Behler
York, Pa.

Share This Story

Looking for a reprint of this article?
From high-res PDFs to custom plaques, order your copy today!

Recommended Content

JOIN TODAY
to unlock your recommendations.

Already have an account? Sign In

  • Worker using the Milwaukee Tool SWITCH PACK drain cleaner

    Pipeline profits: Drain cleaning, pipe inspection create opportunities

    Drain cleaning and inspection services offer lucrative...
    Plumbing News
    By: Nicole Krawcke
  • Uponor employee, Arturo Moreno

    The reinvestment in American manufacturing and training

    Plumbing & Mechanical Chief Editor Nicole Krawcke and...
    Plumbing News
    By: Nicole Krawcke and Natalie Forster
  • March 2024 Women in Plumbing hero image of woman engineer overlayed by circle of hexagon shapes with numbers from 1 to 10

    Celebrating 10 Influential Women in the Plumbing Industry

    Celebrating Women's History Month and Women in...
    Plumbing News
    By: Nicole Krawcke
Manage My Account
  • eNewsletters
  • Online Registration
  • Subscription Customer Service
  • eMagazine
  • Manage My Preferences

More Videos

Popular Stories

Figure 3 and Figure 5 feature image

Hindsight - From complex loops to clean headers: simplifying for reliability

The Glitch & The Fix

Overlooped: Boiler swap gone wrong

SENSEI-RX covered garage-

Rethinking tankless: fact over fiction

Register for the November 13 PM Grundfos Webinar: Smart Pumping Strategies for HVAC: Unlock Efficiency with Grundfos E-Pumps and Systems

Events

November 13, 2024

Future Proofing MEP: Navigating the 2026 High Efficiency Water Heating Standards

Join our deep dive into DOE’s new standards so you can future-proof your MEP practice.

EARN: 0.1 ASPE CEU; 1 AIA LU/HSW; 0.1 IACET CEU*; 1 PDH

November 13, 2025

Smart Pumping Strategies for HVAC: Unlock Efficiency with Grundfos E-Pumps and Systems

Learn how to optimize energy use, improve system control, and simplify pump selection using the Grundfos SELECT tool.

View All Submit An Event

Poll

Will business be up or down in 2025?

Do you anticipate business in 2025 to be up or down in comparison to 2024?
View Results Poll Archive

Products

The Water Came To A Stop

The Water Came To A Stop

See More Products
eBook | 2025 Radiant & Hydronics All Stars

Related Articles

  • Letters To The Editor -- October 2004

    See More
  • Letters To The Editor -- July 2004

    See More
  • Letters To The Editor -- June 2004

    See More

Related Products

See More Products
  • Significant Changes to the International Building Code 2015 Edition

See More Products
×

Keep your content unclogged with our newsletters!

Stay in the know on the latest plumbing & piping industry trends.

JOIN TODAY!
  • RESOURCES
    • Advertise
    • Contact Us
    • Directories
    • Store
    • Want More
    • Supply House Times
  • SIGN UP TODAY
    • Create Account
    • eMagazine
    • eNewsletter
    • Customer Service
    • Manage Preferences
  • SERVICES
    • Marketing Services
    • Reprints
    • Market Research
    • List Rental
    • Survey/Respondent Access
  • STAY CONNECTED
    • LinkedIn
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • YouTube
    • X (Twitter)
  • PRIVACY
    • PRIVACY POLICY
    • TERMS & CONDITIONS
    • DO NOT SELL MY PERSONAL INFORMATION
    • PRIVACY REQUEST
    • ACCESSIBILITY

Copyright ©2025. All Rights Reserved BNP Media.

Design, CMS, Hosting & Web Development :: ePublishing